SB debate

Ez Nova · **Posted:** Feb Fri 06, 2004 8:36 am

Ya Monty. As for who has dominated that class, Hubers truck just works well, no doubt about it. But I think others are now getting a handle on there combo better. Also think the truck might be able to setup better. I known "someone" who races in SM and they been fighting the chassis for two years now, BB making to much power for there chassis, plane and simple.

Marc1166 · **Posted:** Feb Fri 06, 2004 10:12 am

Evidently, Monty must be reading/answering someone elses posts. I never said a thing about the SM class or any other for that matter. And I surely haven't given you the "I'm right your wrong" defense. The fact that Jim Huber is winning has no bearing on this. Good racers can win because of just that, they are good. Not necessarily, that their motor is better, but their combination and driving is better.

The point I'm trying to make is...for guys that don't have a lot of money to start with...the BB is the cheaper easier choice. It will run faster and be cheaper to maintain than a SB running the same numbers. Especially on nitrous. If we were both given 10k to build whatever, I would outrun you everyday and twice on sunday. A 10k SB could make, what, about 650 hp or so on motor. A 10k BB could easily make at least 800. Put nitrous on both, and the hp numbers are compounded even more. While maintainance on the "dump truck motor" would be much less. Would you not agree with these FACTS?

I agree totally that Weight to CID classes would definetly give the advantage to the SB. It's hard to destroke an inherently bigger motor to make the same power efficiently. Like you, I've had some SB's that put a LOT of BB's to shame. I'm sure you've had guys watch you run, only to come by and look under your hood and have his eyes pop out in amazement. But once you start running the numbers that you are/will be, the maintainence cost skyrockets, comparitively speaking.

So, loosen up your panties...no offense intended. Just want to see what you think.

Monty Mikho · **Joined:** Jan Sun 04, 2004 10:02 pm **Posts:** 2056

Monty Mikho wrote:

Again to clearify this. The SBC CID for CID is the same amount of money as a BBC. But a big 555 BBC is cheaper than a 358 SBC when making the same power. But pound for pound, CID for CID, $ for $ the SBC is the better choice. I will say the SBC is harder on parts and takes more to maintain. But I remember going to the track with a plain jane 406 I used to run 9.10's in consistantly and make the BBC that looked like the motor from hell go home feeling let down. That feeling is priceless!!!

Marc, did you miss this part of the last post and the posts before it? I have agreed $ for $ that you can make more power with CID. Thats a no brainer. But CID to CID you will make more power with a smallblock when in the 400 CID range. We cant build 707 SBC plain and simple.

But yes I do agree 100% with you that a 632 with 800 HP is a LOT cheaper than a 283 with 800 HP. But the facts that I have to play with is a weight to CID. I think when compare CID to CID that small block has always made more power per CID... Dont be so uptight

Marc1166 · **Posted:** Feb Fri 06, 2004 12:17 pm

Whew...finally. Some agreement So, why are you decreasing the size of your motor? Was the previous motor combo not reliable? Or are you just trying a totally different combination? Just wondering why the change in size? I find it hard to believe that you couldn't hook the power of that motor with the 10.5's, seeing as the sb's have less bottom end torque than the bb's.

What kind of short times has your car run or projected to run this year? I would think they would be pretty good with a sb.

Don't get all inflamed again...inquiring minds want to know..

Monty Mikho · **Joined:** Jan Sun 04, 2004 10:02 pm **Posts:** 2056

with a 4.25" storke it played hell on an aluminum block. The mains were giving me problems. The torque of the motor was 725 on the avarage N/A. The short times were 1.19's. My car was an old square tube backhalf. It had a lot to desire. I could not come out of the whole with out having wheelstand problems. The wheelie bars would unload the chassis. The reason for the decrease CID is for 2 reasons. One is to patch up the main bearing issue. The next is to run at 2950#'s. I beleive I will be able to make as much power with the 420 as the 461. Just a different way to skin a cat. Im looking to go some .70's this season. If all goes good we will plug some more nitrous to it... Only trial and error will make things work.

And by the way. I beleive all the questions you had were answered in my first post..LOL Did Kevin help you read it? heheheheheeeee

Monty Mikho · **Joined:** Jan Sun 04, 2004 10:02 pm **Posts:** 2056

Kevin, the motor was a standard runner dart 220 headed 406. It costed around $13,000 to build. But it sure did make the guy with the 632, dual carbed, dual staged, big scooped motor next to me feel like $#!t.. There is no price on handing someone their @$$!!! I got my @$$ handed to me by a GN V6.. I looked at the guy and said "damn that thing runs" No excuses, no well you got this much in your motor and I only have this much, no well your car is lighter, no nothing.. Just a WOW...

In this game there is no excuses. We run what we can and they way we see fit. There is 1000 ways to run in the 7's. I think all of them are right... All just have a different way of doing it and thats what keeps this sport exciting!!!

The coolest car I have seen was one of them 4 banger compact cars run a 7.40 at Norwalk. Im sure he had some money tied up in it.. But who really cares? The thing looked awesome, was fast as hell, and ythe was nothing there for a motor. Damn the turbo was bigger than the motor.. Really cool stuff..

Ez Nova · **Posted:** Feb Fri 06, 2004 12:36 pm

After all this BB vs. SB crap. I think I'm working on a new deal to run American Muscle Car, with a slant 6 FEATHER Duster. Major sleeper there, Baby Blue with white stripes, factory Alum. bumpers and Police hub caps. Plus with only 6 holes to fill there should be less cost. And an added bonus the Fogger will use lees nozzles and pounds per pass. HA so there. John

Marc1166 · **Posted:** Feb Fri 06, 2004 1:18 pm

Actually, you did a bunch of tap dancing before the finale. But we got to the bottom of it. Do you guys have a wheelie bar length rule? Also, a lot of the wheelstand problem should be calmed down with the suspension. Have you tried different IC's to help along with adjustments in front end travel speed? I'm sure you must have double adjustable rears. Tried stiffer settings?

I certaintly agree that going fast, however you do it, is cool. It's awesome to see guys like Milt run the numbers he does with a sb. He runs in my class sometimes. Really impressive, but when paired against the BB's....well. It IS nice to hear that you aren't one of those whinners that always has some excuse for losing. That does nothing but keep you from improving your stuff.

Monty Mikho · **Joined:** Jan Sun 04, 2004 10:02 pm **Posts:** 2056

Monty Mikho wrote:

OK lets clear the air and use facts..

To make 900 HP from a 358 smallblock N/A we are talking in the sum of $35,000

To make 900 HP from a 555 bigblock N/A is around $15,000

So it is fair to say that a BBC with more CID will make the same power for a lot less.

Now the CID for CID. It is not cheaper to build a 420 CID BBC than it is for a 420 SBC. They are about the same price.

For the fact of what will out run what. I run in NSCA Super Modified. We are CID to weight class. No small block weight breaks at all. The winner for the last 4 years has been a SBC. We have about 22 cars in the class and only 2-3 are SB's. So the BBC have had more than enough chance to dominate this class.

The SBC CID to CID is a lighter assembly. If you were to build everything equal (Stroke, Rod lengths, Bore dia., cam lifts, heads CFM to CFM..etc, etc...) the SBC would make more power do to the lighter weight parts.

Marc, this was my first post. It does point out that a BBC with more CID will make more power for A LOT less money. Dont worry I understand. Your a BBC guy and it usually takes 10-100 times to understand anything.. LOL

Ez Nova · **Posted:** Feb Sat 07, 2004 1:36 pm

Monty, on the CFSC board you asked for BBc combo's so here:
'69 All steel Nova, 12 bolt 4.56's, 9.0 X 29.5 slick, M21, 3.5" exhuast,
Motor:
402 BBc, Std bore, stock steel crank, trw 11.5 forged piston, stock 3/8 rods, stock pan with hi vol. pump, Factory cld chamber heads PORTED with 2.19 1.88 SS manleys, .660 crane roller, strip dom. with reworked 800 holley, don't now, but with me in it around 3500 lbs. 10.47 @ 132. Now look, factory bottom end, only cleaned up heads, roller cam, intake & carb, and headers. First FULL pass, as grand bend didn't like 10's and no bar. this was a street car, small cam, with a few bolt ons. Had NOS but was asked to leave till bar was installed. Figure low 10's on motor, low 9's on NOS. Not bad for a total investment, including car, for $8200.00 CAN.

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